120v SMPS without using input voltage doubler

wally7856

New member
Well if you use a fan then it is not to much power. The EI33 puts out 400 watts in a computer power supply. But with that said two cores would make it cooler and much easier to wind.

I would still like to know how you fit all that wire on the secondary though. Do your bobbins match the dimensions of the bobbins i posted.
 

hanair

New member
Well if you use a fan then it is not to much power. The EI33 puts out 400 watts in a computer power supply. But with that said two cores would make it cooler and much easier to wind.

I would still like to know how you fit all that wire on the secondary though. Do your bobbins match the dimensions of the bobbins i posted.

I think I am missing something here. This is what I did so far. I tested one transformer with a load of about 150 W. Mosfets (IRF840) get barely warm at this power. The transformer was 20+20 turns of primary with 24 AWG and 12+12 turns of secondary with 19 AWG. In a later trial I used 3 strands of 26 AWG for primary and 6 strands of 26 AWG for secondary (same number of turns as before). Rectified output was close to +/- 45v in both cases. Primary and secondary are separated by 1 layer Kapton tape + 1 layer electric tape. All these tests conducted with the standard voltage doubler so that the DC input to the MOSFETs would be around 340 v DC. As you said, it may not be a good idea to convert this circuit to 170v DC, because that will double the input power dissipation, even if I use double the size of the wire for input.
 

wally7856

New member
I think I am missing something here. This is what I did so far. I tested one transformer with a load of about 150 W. Mosfets (IRF840) get barely warm at this power. The transformer was 20+20 turns of primary with 24 AWG and 12+12 turns of secondary with 19 AWG. In a later trial I used 3 strands of 26 AWG for primary and 6 strands of 26 AWG for secondary (same number of turns as before). Rectified output was close to +/- 45v in both cases. Primary and secondary are separated by 1 layer Kapton tape + 1 layer electric tape. All these tests conducted with the standard voltage doubler so that the DC input to the MOSFETs would be around 340 v DC. As you said, it may not be a good idea to convert this circuit to 170v DC, because that will double the input power dissipation, even if I use double the size of the wire for input.

What was the question.
 

hanair

New member
Thanks for all the help Wally!

What was the question.

Well you asked:
"I would still like to know how you fit all that wire on the secondary though."

I don't see a reason what should make it hard to wind 24 turns of 18 or 19 AWG for the output. EI33 is not that small. So I just described whatever I did so far.

Even with higher heat dissipation on the primary, I might still try to get rid of the input voltage doubler.
If I end up using two transformers, can the primaries be just parallel'ed or should I duplicate the whole MSOFET output stage?
 

wally7856

New member
You can parallel or series the primary or secondary. But the secret is you have to have at least one of them in series so that both transformers share the current. The other possibility is just use a larger transformer.

What is your objection to the voltage doubler.
 

hanair

New member
You can parallel or series the primary or secondary. But the secret is you have to have at least one of them in series so that both transformers share the current. The other possibility is just use a larger transformer.

What is your objection to the voltage doubler.

What would be a good bigger transformer for SMPS purposes?

Well, the main objection I had with a voltage doubler was because I was trying to produce a lower voltage from the mains. Lower voltage components are smaller in size and overall the circuit would be simpler. But now I realize that there can be more power dissipation in the transformer for a lower input voltage.
 

wally7856

New member
"What would be a good bigger transformer for SMPS purposes?"

Hard question. Because it is difficult to buy cores and bobbins, the average person just uses what he can find. Anything physically bigger will be easier to get more power out of. So it usually ends up being what you can find to buy, how much you want to spend, how big you want the power supply to be, and is it a ferrite that works in the frequency range you want.
 

hanair

New member
Thanks for all the help Wally. I might have to do some more reading and shopping before deciding the next step!
 

wally7856

New member
KX36 disappeared, i was hoping he was calculating an over 100khz solution that commercial people would use and we could learn something.
 

wally7856

New member
"EE55 EE Type Transformer Ferrite Magnetic Core Coil Former 56x57x21mm"

This is an Ebay core and bobbin that is always for sale. The only problem with it, is no ferrite type is specified so you have to guess. You could try sending him an email and see what he says.
 

hanair

New member
"EE55 EE Type Transformer Ferrite Magnetic Core Coil Former 56x57x21mm"
This is an Ebay core and bobbin that is always for sale. The only problem with it, is no ferrite type is specified so you have to guess. You could try sending him an email and see what he says.

Thanks for the info. I see that it is being listed in Aliexpress as well, and the listing says the material is PC40. Is that all we need to calculate the core parameters? I never calculated SMPS or the transformer parameters.

Edit: Are there any advantages for EI vs EE, especially for audio purposes?
 

KX36

New member
I have a TDK datasheet which quotes 288W output power for their EI33 at 100kHz, 200mT based on a forward converter. They do seem to extrapolate this to silly wattages for a a forward converter on their bigger cores, so I don't know how reliable this is. Higher frequency increases the power density. If you can confirm the core material you can look up on the datasheet what the core loss would be for a given flux density, frequency and temperature and you can work out your copper losses easily enough based on just resistances (DC and AC if you account for skin and proximity effects). Transformers typically get to 100'C inside and that's fine, the core loss graph on the datasheet will show at this temperature, but various insulation will fail if it goes much higher (3M type 56 tape is specified to 130'C, their polyimide (Kapton) tapes range from 155-180'C).

Not using the voltage doubler would be more suitable for single switch forward and push-pull topologies that don't like high input voltage as they require a transistor with a voltage rating of double the input voltage plus a significant margin, which gets tricky when Vin=400V from a PFC for example. Half bridge converters suit voltage doublers quite well, but you could really do it either way. DC copper loss is I^2*R, so lower current does reduce dissipation, but your copper loss shouldn't be massive anyway. High voltage low current means half the wire cross section but double the wire length which I think means the same amount of copper, lower current but higher resistance, so it balances out.

EI cores aren't necessarily much smaller than an EE core (e.g. I have dimensions for EI core measuring 33x29mm, and an EE measuring 34x36mm). One advantage of EE cores over EI cores, although not relevant to this, is that if you want to add a gap, the gap will be in the right place in the middle of the winding rather than off to one side.

I use multiple strands of AWG31/SWG34 ECW where possible for 100kHz which should be thin enough to get past both skin and proximity effects [76/SQRT(Fs) is the skin depth in mm for copper, that would be the max radius for skin effect, but max diameter for proximity effect IIRC]. Set the total cross sectional area of copper in a winding for a current density of between 2.5-3.5A/mm2 for tightly bundled wires such as in a transformer, up to 5A/mm2 for loose wires that can cool more easily. I also have some 0.2mm thick copper foil which I use when the winding current is over roughly 5A, but it's not particularly easy to use as it's not insulated and a pain to solder. Most of my designs are under 250W and not very high current, so I get by. Litz wire would probably be better but the only source I have for it is eBay where you can't really specify your own dimensions and it's all really there for ham radio antennae. Tripple insulated wire would also be nice for small transformers but I don't have a source for it. I buy my cores and bobbins from RS, typically Epcos ETD in N87 material. I also use 3M type 56 tape or occasionally Kapton. Make sure if you're designing a transformer for mains isolation you maintain your 6mm creepage distance (make a 3mm margin bulked out with tape at the sides of a winding and have the insulation layers stick out into it) and tripple layer the insulation between primary and secondary. Basic functional isolation is usually sufficient for windings on the same side (i.e. pri vs sec)
 
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KX36

New member
It doesn't say, but it could be. Common practice is to assign 0.5% of the output power to core loss and the same to copper loss. If this were the case, the dissipation in the transformer would be 2.88W which could be convection cooled. Normally designing for a maximum core loss limit you'd use the loss to find the maximum flux density and from that work out a minimum number of turns. Less core loss therefore means more turns and more copper loss. In the end you want to just fill the winding window nicely while also balancing core vs copper loss. It's an iterative process and it may be too expensive or time consuming to optimise the design to achieve the highest power rating.
 

hanair

New member
Thank you, KX36! A great post indeed.

I thihnk, EI33 should be sufficient for my purpose and I can use two different cores for two different channels. I can parallel the primaries of two transformers and connect them to the same MOSFET output stage, right?

If I can change the swiching frequency of the SMPS, is there a way to measure some parameter and adjust the frequency to achieve the optimum value for a configuration?

Make sure if you're designing a transformer for mains isolation you maintain your 6mm creepage distance (make a 3mm margin bulked out with tape at the sides of a winding and have the insulation layers stick out into it) and tripple layer the insulation between primary and secondary. Basic functional isolation is usually sufficient for windings on the same side (i.e. pri vs sec)

That would be 3mm thick insulation between primary and secondary (on both sides of secondary), correct? I am wondering if EI33 has enough space to accommodate that?
 

wally7856

New member
Hanair, you can use 2mm per side or 3mm per side. The 3mm is a better transformer with a higher voltage break-over rating but both 2mm and 3mm types are common. And yes, 3mm per side on an EI33 does not leave much so personally i would use 2mm.

This jpg shows transformer construction.
 

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wally7856

New member
"I thihnk, EI33 should be sufficient for my purpose and I can use two different cores for two different channels. I can parallel the primaries of two transformers and connect them to the same MOSFET output stage, right?"

Yes you can.

what i would do is, connect primaries in parallel and the secondary's in series. Each EI33 would have one secondary winding of 45v. In series you get your 45-0-45.
 
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