behemoth IGBTs.... Think i could build a 'resonable' sized SMPS?

Light

New member
hey everyone.....

I have these IGBTs. 4 of them, each peice is a duel module (2 could be made into a full-bridge)

now... The size of these IGBTs:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/C/M/8/0/CM800DZ-34H.shtml

each one is 1700V @ 800A with 1600A pulse.
It has a max dissipation of 5kW
on delay = 1.60us
rise time = 2.00us
off delay = 2.70us
fall time = 0.80us

Rather slow... Maybe someone could help me find a suitable core and the transformer calculations...
Build the biggest SMPS on the forum? (but i can only go up to around 18.4kW due to house power restrictions)

Whos up for it? If possible?
 

Light

New member
Around $1005

Ive got a few used ones for free from a contact. They are used in wind turbines for the Grid tied inverter. Also got a load of the capacitors.

How come?
 

MicrosiM

Administrator
Staff member
hey everyone.....

I have these IGBTs. 4 of them, each peice is a duel module (2 could be made into a full-bridge)

now... The size of these IGBTs:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/C/M/8/0/CM800DZ-34H.shtml

each one is 1700V @ 800A with 1600A pulse.
It has a max dissipation of 5kW
on delay = 1.60us
rise time = 2.00us
off delay = 2.70us
fall time = 0.80us

Rather slow... Maybe someone could help me find a suitable core and the transformer calculations...
Build the biggest SMPS on the forum? (but i can only go up to around 18.4kW due to house power restrictions)

Whos up for it? If possible?


In order to provide help, we need to know nature of application, Input voltage, output voltage

Those IGBTS looks very nice for multi KW SMPS
 

Light

New member
I would design it for rectified 3 phase (uk so 230v p-e/ 415v p-p)
But run it on single phase (230v) though a doubler.

For an ouput im thinking a high voltage... so, 15kV-0-15kV
I would be putting the transformer under oil. However i don't think those IGBTs can go very fast, and i don't know what core.
 

Light

New member
These things are too slow i thinks.

Anyone know how to work out the fastest i could likely drive them at?
 

rikkitikki

New member
Limited by switching power loss and your cooling capacity.

You need to see how many joules are lost att each turn on/off and then scale this to your application current/voltage (half voltage = half loss, half current half loss) and then add conduction losses on top of these swithcning losses.
Switching loss is then on/off loss* switching frequency (fex, loss is 100 mJ on and off @ 1000V and 100A. Use it at 500V and 10 A = > 500/1000*10/100*100 = 5 mJ.
Switching frequency = 20 kHz => power loss = 20000 *0,005 = 100W.

But of course they can not switch on before they are off, so maximum switching is 1/( ton+toff+tdelay on + tdelay off) or about 1/10us = 100 kHz, but that would give very unsharp current/voltage shape during switching with immense losses.

Conduction loss = Vcesat*Ic*duty .

I would not use this for swithcing anything
 

Light

New member
I already know i will be unable to switch anywhere near 100kHz. I can deal with a few kW power dissapation one way or another. This this is only going to be designed for running at 15 minutes max at a time.

Not sure where i can get the switching loss however. I have little experiance with the math involved in working with semiconductors.
 

KX36

New member
You could work out your switching losses and compare them to your conduction losses. A frequency where they're roughly equal might be appropriate, I'd expect between 1-10kHz. It's really slow for a switching converter, but it's not your typical converter. The cooling and magnetics would be huge, but very big expensive switches need to be in a very big expensive megaproject
 

Light

New member
I have no clue how to actually do the switching losses and conduction losses, i had a few tries but they all sound rather unrealistic. The datasheet doesn't even show the mJ for switching loss like many other datasheets do i believe.

I can deal with cooling (i know a company that produce water cooling heatsinks at a rather good price. I also have a homebrew idea using a high pressure pump.)

The main thing will be the magnetics as i am unsure about that.

So the main things im stuck with are Magnetics and the Calculations for speed and losses.
 

KX36

New member
Oh, something I forgot to mention earlier..

Very high power converters will often use a quasi resonant topology (i.e. soft switching, ZVS/ZCS) to reduce semiconductor switching losses and perhaps any PN junction reverse recovery times such as those of non-schottky rectifier diodes and the IGBT's internal collector-emitter flyback diode. They're not as simple to design as hard switcing converters though. Ideally it'd be a full bridge converter, but with only 2 switches and running off-line, it will be a half bridge.

Here's a detailed application/datasheet for a ZVS half bridge controller IC: L6591
No idea if it's appropriate or not, just googled "ZVS half bridge" and linked it for reference.

Conduction loss is relatively simple to calculate as it's just ohms law multiplied by the duty cycle.
Looking at the curves on the Mitsubishi CM800DZ-34H datasheet, I think for the purpose of calculating conduction loss, you can model the collector-emitter path through an IGBT as a near ideal diode in series with the drain of an ideal MOSFET and one resistor in series with the diode, one in parallel with it. Roughly 20mR in parallel, 1.25mR in series by my calculation and 1V forward drop in the diode. Note the diode won't conduct until it's passing 50A (it seems the device is intended to be used between 50-800A). You have to be careful looking at just the data in the table as most of it comes from full voltage or current and I don't think you're likely to be putting 800A through it. Once you know the equivalent resistance of the conductive path, it's D*I^2*R or D*V^2/R.

Switching loss isn't as simple to calculate. You might be fooled into calcualting the energy that goes into charging and discharging the gate capacitance rather than that which is dissipated in the conductive path. If you were to assume the switching loss is the product of maximum current, maximum voltage, switch transition time and switch frequency will probably be a vast overestimation. E.g. if the device was switching its full voltage 1700V and 800A at 10kHz with a turn on time of 2.9us and turn off time of 3.3us, that's 83kW dissipation. I don't think that's particularly accurate. I don't have much experience with IGBTs, but knowing the switching waveforms in a FET I know that there is some time where there is both voltage across and current through the channel and its dissipation will be high, but most of the time they're both high one will be ramping up and the other ramping down, so the dissipation is less than if they were both at maximum for the full switch transition.

I can't comment on rikkitikki's suggestion which quotes a known amount of energy for switching a certain current and voltage and then using the ratio of current and voltage in your circuit to this standard value. I haven't seen it before but it doesn't seem to account for the actual switch transition time which will be different in different devices so I can't see how there can be a fixed amount of energy to switch a fixed voltage and current, unless I've missed something. About his conduction loss equation, it's right but if you just go by the datasheet value for Vce(sat), you won't get the right answer as that value was measured at Ic=800A
 
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KX36

New member
Missed the 1V diode drop from that conductive loss equation. Below 50A, it's Ic^2*20mR*D, above 50A its (Ic^2*1.25mR+1V*Ic)*D
 

Light

New member
Those are some interesting thoughts KX36, I shall take them into account.

For now, im thinking maybe it would be a good idea to build a smaller scale one using some other IGBTs before i move onto that one.

I have quite an assortment of IGBT bricks from ebay and other places (all tested working myself)

1MBI600U4B-120 1200v 600A single IGBT brick.

CM50DY-24H 1200v 50A duel/half-bridge IGBT brick.

2MBI300S-120 1200v 300A duel/half-bridge IGBT brick

2MBI450U4E-120 1200v 450A duel/half-bridge IGBT brick

Quite an assortment.

Im thinking it might be better to go with my CM50 IGBTs then move up to my 2MBI300s and see how i do with them. build a nice half-bridge with those before i try to use the larger, slower ones.
The main thing is that i really want to make use of these massive IGBTs one way or another.
 

KX36

New member
I think that's very wise. Too often people rush into too big a project which they aren't ready for. Burning through several semiconductors through a bulldozer development process seems to be par for the course, but would be foolish with $1000 IGBTs. You really need to be confident and experienced in what you're doing before turning it on.
 

Light

New member
I agree. I've came up with a few projects to work on first:

-22.2V -> 400V 2A boost converter

-50A half-bridge
-50A full-bridge

-400V 5A PFC Boost converter (interleaved)
-400V 10A PFC Boost converter (interleaved)
-800V 10A PFC Boost converter (interleaved)
-800V 20A PFC Boost converter (interleaved)

Does anyone have any information on large Ferrites and where to get them.
Really i want a core that is good for up to 18kW with a large winding window.
 

Light

New member
That would be rather irritating to be honest due to winding them all. Plus using 6 would make it very hard to get up to 15kV-0-15kV

Im thinking of maybe buying a large load of I cores and gluing them all together or somthing.

Besides, i was at an electronics convention and a company was there showcasing their planar transformers

Some of the ferrites were for 200kW planar transformers and were litterally about 20cmx15cmx5cm
 

KX36

New member
That doesn't sound right. Google "200kVA transformer" at look at the size of them.

I don't have experience in very high voltage like that, I've never seen a multi kV supply that wasn't a low power flyback or voltage multiplier, but it might be possible to have several transformers with their primaries in parallel and secondarily in series to achieve high voltage and power.
 

Light

New member
couldn't find the 200kW one. However:

 
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